Try laying off the insults & stick to the topic. Then people might take you and any suggestions you make more seriously.

That was the politest way I could think of to reply to someone who can't grasp simple logic. Anyway, since I said you CAN'T be that dim, I was surely complimenting you? I was suggesting you must have made a mistake, rather than having a catastrophic misunderstanding of basic principles.

And for other projects that's exactly what does happen. Of course you are using an example where the project's application and the computing resources makes doing so impossible. With all other applications that don't need multiple cores/threads for a single application, there will be no unused cores/threads.

You still don't understand, it is not impossible! Multiple threaded applications from one project doesn't stop you being able to fill the CPU, if you have other projects available using single cores!

I'll try once more with another analogy. You're in the military, your superior gives you primary targets (that's the ones they really need destroyed), and secondary targets (far less important, but handy if you get some). You end up in a situation where it's impossible to shoot any primary ones. Your colleagues haven't shot enough of them either. Do you... a) shoot some secondary ones and at least achieve something, or b) go home and do nothing?

Boinc is precisely the same. The user has said that Physics is ten times more important than Biology. That does not mean you have to do exactly ten times more Physics! If only Biology will fit in the remaining cores, then do it! Biology is still more important than doing nothing, or the user wouldn't have joined the project at all!

And once again i will point out the very basic fact- resource share is something that is honoured over time. At any given time, work done won't necessarily match the resource share settings due to application requirements, hardware being used & the users settings. As long as you continue to ignore that fact, you will forever be disappointed with what may be occurring at any given time on your system.

That's another thing they've got wrong. Say you've been doing 3 Physics to 1 Biology. You suddenly decide to swap those round, you want to do coronavirus work, so you set the weightings to 1, 3. Boinc should immediately reset all debt counters and from that point on honour what you've asked, not do what it does now and take account of past history, ending up doing ONLY Biology for a while, and leaving the Physics tasks sat rotting to miss the deadline.

As would the gardening company if it were a requirement that there be a minimum of 2 workers performing any given task- which is the situation in the example you quoted.

The only requirements were to do as much lawn as possible, and do flowerbeds as a secondary task. To make it simpler for you there were no multicore tasks in that gardening scenario. You're now confusing the two. Think about it again. Three workers. Two lawnmowers. One person operates one mower. Lawn more important. What's the best way to achieve as much of my request as possible? You need to go buy some of those kids logic books to practice.

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All of the BOINC projects I've found mentioning how much money they had were asking for donations, not saying that they had loads of money.

How do you think they pay their staff, pay the electricity bill, etc? A bit of programming shared between many projects would be chicken feed compared to that.

They don't 'pay' those people in cash they 'pay' them in the degrees they get for going to school there. The electric bill is paid by the University etc and any programmers are either picked as volunteers or by someone brought over from the IT section and told to 'make it do this'. My son was a student at UNC working on his PHD in Chemistry and worked on a part of the Poem Boinc Project and had zero clue about anything but was told to 'make it work', this is very common and even Seti did it at Berkeley!! They ran Seti out of a fricking broom closet, for you that's a room smaller than a loo!!

I got hold of a decent Server one time and offerred it to Seti, they said 'sure but you have to send it to us' it weighed over 200 pounds and there was NO WAY I was paying to ship that so they never got it, turns out it wouldn't have fit in the closet anyway.

Donations is how 99% of Boinc Projects stay up and running, those that don't either have their own funding, apply for grants or are self funded and there are VERY few of those.

And once again i will point out the very basic fact- resource share is something that is honoured over time. At any given time, work done won't necessarily match the resource share settings due to application requirements, hardware being used & the users settings. As long as you continue to ignore that fact, you will forever be disappointed with what may be occurring at any given time on your system.

That's another thing they've got wrong. Say you've been doing 3 Physics to 1 Biology. You suddenly decide to swap those round, you want to do coronavirus work, so you set the weightings to 1, 3. Boinc should immediately reset all debt counters and from that point on honour what you've asked, not do what it does now and take account of past history, ending up doing ONLY Biology for a while, and leaving the Physics tasks sat rotting to miss the deadline.

That was a choice to do it that way, no one says it's perfect but it is what it is and you just have to figure out how to deal with it or talk to the Dr A Group and get them to change it. Remember when Boinc started there was ONE Project, Seti, and all of these other Projects came along later on, could the software use some updating absolutely but getting changes can ONLY be done by going thru the Dr A Group. So you can say that it's not what "I WANT" and give all the examples you like but until you go thru the Dr A Group nothing will change.

I’ll tell you what, let’s stop feeding the troll :-(

They don't 'pay' those people in cash they 'pay' them in the degrees they get for going to school there. The electric bill is paid by the University etc and any programmers are either picked as volunteers or by someone brought over from the IT section and told to 'make it do this'. My son was a student at UNC working on his PHD in Chemistry and worked on a part of the Poem Boinc Project and had zero clue about anything but was told to 'make it work', this is very common and even Seti did it at Berkeley!! They ran Seti out of a fricking broom closet, for you that's a room smaller than a loo!!

I got hold of a decent Server one time and offerred it to Seti, they said 'sure but you have to send it to us' it weighed over 200 pounds and there was NO WAY I was paying to ship that so they never got it, turns out it wouldn't have fit in the closet anyway.

Donations is how 99% of Boinc Projects stay up and running, those that don't either have their own funding, apply for grants or are self funded and there are VERY few of those.

I thought the US government put a lot of money into research, especially things like cancer.

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And once again i will point out the very basic fact- resource share is something that is honoured over time. At any given time, work done won't necessarily match the resource share settings due to application requirements, hardware being used & the users settings. As long as you continue to ignore that fact, you will forever be disappointed with what may be occurring at any given time on your system.

That's another thing they've got wrong. Say you've been doing 3 Physics to 1 Biology. You suddenly decide to swap those round, you want to do coronavirus work, so you set the weightings to 1, 3. Boinc should immediately reset all debt counters and from that point on honour what you've asked, not do what it does now and take account of past history, ending up doing ONLY Biology for a while, and leaving the Physics tasks sat rotting to miss the deadline.

That was a choice to do it that way, no one says it's perfect but it is what it is and you just have to figure out how to deal with it or talk to the Dr A Group and get them to change it. Remember when Boinc started there was ONE Project, Seti, and all of these other Projects came along later on, could the software use some updating absolutely but getting changes can ONLY be done by going thru the Dr A Group. So you can say that it's not what "I WANT" and give all the examples you like but until you go thru the Dr A Group nothing will change.

That example you could say was my opinion, but a lot of things I've moaned about can only be done one sensible way.

Another example, they added in an option to run more than one task at a time on a GPU, but failed to tell the scheduler how to cope. The only way I've got it to fill the GPU all the time when running more than one project is to set all the projects to run the same number on the GPU, otherwise you get a dual task project taking up half the GPU with the last task in the queue, with single task stuff waiting, and Boinc doesn't have the sense to either get another one or stop that one.

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I’ll tell you what, let’s stop feeding the troll :-(

In my 25 years on the internet I think I've only seen 3. Mostly people shout "troll" just because they disagree with somebody.

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They don't 'pay' those people in cash they 'pay' them in the degrees they get for going to school there. The electric bill is paid by the University etc and any programmers are either picked as volunteers or by someone brought over from the IT section and told to 'make it do this'. My son was a student at UNC working on his PHD in Chemistry and worked on a part of the Poem Boinc Project and had zero clue about anything but was told to 'make it work', this is very common and even Seti did it at Berkeley!! They ran Seti out of a fricking broom closet, for you that's a room smaller than a loo!!

I got hold of a decent Server one time and offerred it to Seti, they said 'sure but you have to send it to us' it weighed over 200 pounds and there was NO WAY I was paying to ship that so they never got it, turns out it wouldn't have fit in the closet anyway.

Donations is how 99% of Boinc Projects stay up and running, those that don't either have their own funding, apply for grants or are self funded and there are VERY few of those.

I thought the US government put a lot of money into research, especially things like cancer.

Not Boinc though, it was written to prove that 'crowd computing' could do the work for free. The different alphabet companies have given money to Boinc over the years but that's all stopped now as the concept is proven and they aren't getting anything more out of it.

And once again i will point out the very basic fact- resource share is something that is honoured over time. At any given time, work done won't necessarily match the resource share settings due to application requirements, hardware being used & the users settings. As long as you continue to ignore that fact, you will forever be disappointed with what may be occurring at any given time on your system.

That's another thing they've got wrong. Say you've been doing 3 Physics to 1 Biology. You suddenly decide to swap those round, you want to do coronavirus work, so you set the weightings to 1, 3. Boinc should immediately reset all debt counters and from that point on honour what you've asked, not do what it does now and take account of past history, ending up doing ONLY Biology for a while, and leaving the Physics tasks sat rotting to miss the deadline.

That was a choice to do it that way, no one says it's perfect but it is what it is and you just have to figure out how to deal with it or talk to the Dr A Group and get them to change it. Remember when Boinc started there was ONE Project, Seti, and all of these other Projects came along later on, could the software use some updating absolutely but getting changes can ONLY be done by going thru the Dr A Group. So you can say that it's not what "I WANT" and give all the examples you like but until you go thru the Dr A Group nothing will change.

That example you could say was my opinion, but a lot of things I've moaned about can only be done one sensible way.

Another example, they added in an option to run more than one task at a time on a GPU, but failed to tell the scheduler how to cope. The only way I've got it to fill the GPU all the time when running more than one project is to set all the projects to run the same number on the GPU, otherwise you get a dual task project taking up half the GPU with the last task in the queue, with single task stuff waiting, and Boinc doesn't have the sense to either get another one or stop that one.

So you want to run TWO Boinc Projects on one gpu at the same time.....again that's a Dr A Group thing as gpu crunching was NEVER an original part of Boinc and only added after people said 'hey my gpu can mine why can't it crunch?' so they wrote a way for gpu's to crunch too and then projects made apps for the different gpu's. Initialy Nvidia helped Dr A's Group write the Nvidia software into Boinc and then they did the AMD/ATI software too.

Me I want to run 2 different cpu projects on my 4 core cpu at the exact same time with one project using one cpu core and the other project using the other 3 cores, but Boinc isn't written that way so I'm out of luck and I must use the resource share to manage it so both projects get their crunching time. It work out it's just not instant like todays thinking.

[snip]

If you insist that many of them have loads of money, you'd better supply proof of that.

Or what? You'll come round my house and duff me up?

More likely that I'll decide you aren't writing anything that deserves answers.

One that might is Rosetta@home, due to the large license fees they charge for using their software on sites other than theirs (and their test site, Ralph@home).

And WCG, sponsored by IBM.

The way I saw, IBM provides and runs their servers, but nothing else.

If that's what you want, find a source of money to pay for programmers with enough experience that you'd call them decent, instead of the university students that most of them are now.

You'd only need a small number for a short time.

So you're assuming that you won't need to pay them for even that short time?

[snip]

And once again i will point out the very basic fact- resource share is something that is honoured over time. At any given time, work done won't necessarily match the resource share settings due to application requirements, hardware being used & the users settings. As long as you continue to ignore that fact, you will forever be disappointed with what may be occurring at any given time on your system.

That's another thing they've got wrong. Say you've been doing 3 Physics to 1 Biology. You suddenly decide to swap those round, you want to do coronavirus work, so you set the weightings to 1, 3. Boinc should immediately reset all debt counters and from that point on honour what you've asked, not do what it does now and take account of past history, ending up doing ONLY Biology for a while, and leaving the Physics tasks sat rotting to miss the deadline.

So you haven't noticed the high priority mode that BOINC uses for tasks approaching their deadlines?

It tries to finish them even if your settings call for doing some other tasks instead.

This can create new problems if you have so many tasks eligible for high priority mode that they need more CPU cores than the number of CPU cores you allow BOINC to use, though.

[like]

Donations is how 99% of Boinc Projects stay up and running, those that don't either have their own funding, apply for grants or are self funded and there are VERY few of those.

I thought the US government put a lot of money into research, especially things like cancer.

So you haven't noticed how many BOINC projects are outside the US and therefore rarely considered for any US government grants?

I've seen little if any sign that any of the US government grants are going to any BOINC projects.

[snip]

Me I want to run 2 different cpu projects on my 4 core cpu at the exact same time with one project using one cpu core and the other project using the other 3 cores, but Boinc isn't written that way so I'm out of luck and I must use the resource share to manage it so both projects get their crunching time. It work out it's just not instant like todays thinking.

So you haven't noticed the multitasking ability of BOINC?

However, it only works if the programmers wrote it into their application, with information from the server on the number of CPU cores the tasks is allowed to ask for and how it can arrange the different threads so that no thread changes anything that some other thread needs.

Note that such multithreading is part of the work toward creating a GPU version of the application.

Among the BOINC projects I've seen, use of this multithreading feature with multiple CPU cores per task is not commonly used these days,

A more restricted form is often used, though, where a list of threads is available but only one CPU core. Whenever the current thread needs to wait for something to happen, this thread is switched out of the CPU core and another one is switched in.

Telling a task that it can use more than one CPU core, without writing the ability to do this into the application, is USELESS.

On the other hand, it is easier to have BOINC run one task on one of the CPU cores for one projects, and three independent tasks from the other project on the other three cores at the same time, without doing anything to the applications to tell them how to use more than one CPU core.

I've seen little sign that any of the US government grants are going to any BOINC projects.

Almost all of them, starting with BOINC itself, which was supported by the U.S. government for many years. Who else did it?

The ATLAS project at CERN, as I posted here:
https://lhcathome.cern.ch/lhcathome/forum_thread.php?id=5516

MilkyWay (the NSF logo mean the National Science Foundation).
https://milkyway.cs.rpi.edu/milkyway/forum_index.php

Rosetta (National Institutes of Health logo).
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/

nanoHUB (National Science Foundation)
https://nanohub.org/about

I expect all of the U.S. universities involved in WCG are getting government help.
The Scripps Reseach Institute (Open Pandemics) certainly is by the NIH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripps_Research

What other governments do you see supporting BOINC projects?

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Not Boinc though, it was written to prove that 'crowd computing' could do the work for free. The different alphabet companies have given money to Boinc over the years but that's all stopped now as the concept is proven and they aren't getting anything more out of it.

Nothing is free, but with Boinc the vast majority (the computing power, both the cost of the chips and the electricity) is free to them.

So you want to run TWO Boinc Projects on one gpu at the same time.....

That's not my aim, my aim was to run more than one WU at a time from one project, because while the GPU is waiting on a CPU part of the WU, it can be processing the other one. However that is more necessary for some projects than others, depending on how the programming is done. So I'd set for example 1 Collatz, or 2 Einstein, or 3 Milkyway to run at once. This confused Boinc immensely (not hard to do) and caused it to often end up with less than a full GPU running. Eg. 2 Einstein running, 1 finishes, only Collatz left in my buffer. Only sensible thing to do is pause the Einstein and start the Collatz, but no, it didn't.

again that's a Dr A Group thing as gpu crunching was NEVER an original part of Boinc and only added after people said 'hey my gpu can mine why can't it crunch?' so they wrote a way for gpu's to crunch too and then projects made apps for the different gpu's.

GPUs have been on Boinc for a long time, long enough to copy the scheduler over from the CPU. But for some reason they did it differently. And then some bright spark decided to have two sets of debts, one for CPU and one for GPU. [Head crashes into desk]

Me I want to run 2 different cpu projects on my 4 core cpu at the exact same time with one project using one cpu core and the other project using the other 3 cores, but Boinc isn't written that way so I'm out of luck and I must use the resource share to manage it so both projects get their crunching time. It work out it's just not instant like todays thinking.

It should be written that way. But Boinc tries to do thing in the most complicated way possible.

But for your example, surely a weighting of 3 and 1 would achieve exactly that, as long as one doesn't run out of work.

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Fewer than 200 000 jobs in the queue as of 07:00 UTC today. At a completion rate of around 600 000 per day, we can expect to run out very soon…

Total queued jobs: 0

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Total queued jobs: 0

Only just hit me (or I only just noticed)

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It sneaks up on you.

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