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Message 12211 - Posted: 18 Mar 2006, 22:17:16 UTC
Last modified: 18 Mar 2006, 22:32:22 UTC

Moderator request on BOINC dev list

Banning or blocking users = prior censorship

Releasing private user information to "outsiders" = REALLY bad privacy policy.
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Message 12215 - Posted: 18 Mar 2006, 22:33:26 UTC - in response to Message 12211.  
Last modified: 18 Mar 2006, 23:15:29 UTC

Moderator request on BOINC dev list

Banning or blocking users = prior censorship

Releasing private user information to "outsiders" = REALLY bad privacy policy.


Big deal, so some BBC/CPDN moderator made a request for some tools to help moderate their forums. You act like it was a Rosetta request. It obviously is not so why post it here. You should lodge your complait with the BBC/CPDN project. Besides, some of that looks like a good idea, and the rest will not likely be done.

Of course I can see why you might be concerned. My guess is you have ben posting on the BBC/CPDN Forums. But most of the rest of us will not be affected.

We Must look for intelligent life on other planets as,
it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Message 12216 - Posted: 18 Mar 2006, 22:43:27 UTC

Thread moved from Number crunching
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Message 12238 - Posted: 19 Mar 2006, 3:42:45 UTC - in response to Message 12215.  
Last modified: 19 Mar 2006, 3:48:14 UTC

You act like it was a Rosetta request. It obviously is not so why post it here.


How do you know that? You're guessing based on a third party reference to actions of a moderator at CPDN.

Do you know for sure that "Arnaud" is NOT Moderator9 or one of his/her cohorts?

Will they categorically deny it? Or own up to it? I doubt it.

Regardless, it is VERY bad form for a moderator of ANY BOINC forum to publically refer to their users as "out-of-their-mind" or "crazier". It would get someone fired in real life.

Proudly Banned from Predictator@Home and now Cosmology@home as well. Added SETI to the list today. Temporary ban only - so need to work harder :)



"You can't fix stupid" (Ron White)
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Message 12244 - Posted: 19 Mar 2006, 6:51:59 UTC - in response to Message 12238.  
Last modified: 19 Mar 2006, 7:33:19 UTC

You act like it was a Rosetta request. It obviously is not so why post it here.


How do you know that? You're guessing based on a third party reference to actions of a moderator at CPDN.

Do you know for sure that "Arnaud" is NOT Moderator9 or one of his/her cohorts?

Will they categorically deny it? Or own up to it? I doubt it.

Regardless, it is VERY bad form for a moderator of ANY BOINC forum to publically refer to their users as "out-of-their-mind" or "crazier". It would get someone fired in real life.

Well lets take a look at the wording of the message itself -
Hi,

Moderators really need the following functions in the Boinc forums:

1) Possibility to move entire threads, not only isolated messages. (One
of the BBC moderator moved 72 messages, because there is no possibility
to move entire threads: She didn't want to delete the whole thread)
2) Possibility to lock some overheated threads.
3) Possibility to ban/lock some "out of their mind" users, temporarily
or definitively, of a forum.
3 bis) Or to filter some "out of their mind" users so that usual users
don't see their raving messages: it's too much time-consuming for
moderators to watch all the messages of the weirdos and to
edit/delete/move these messages (and the crazier, to more they write :o))
4) Possibility to see the email address or to send a PM to discuss
before moderating (IMO, censorship/moderation is the ultimate reaction
to have: I prefer to talk and explain before acting like a cop)

Thanks for thinking about these suggestions....
I think 1) and 2) are the most important to implement.

Regards,
Arnaud


When I look at this I see an example of a problem from a mod on the BBC project. That means CPDN. I also see it is a woman that had the problem, and that the message is also written by a mod. I see no mention of rosy, but I do not suffer from your paranoia regarding the mods here. Now I also see that the message appears to be from someone who may not have english as a first language. The mods here seem to have a fair grasp on english when you read their posts. But I suppose they might try to make their messages look like that so we would not suspect that they wrote them.

I can understand how you might think that post is all about you, and some of the references to the type of people they deal with might hit very close to home for you, but frankly the world does not revolve around you. So the idea that mods use secret identities to post ideas to get you on the boinc web is a very long reach. I would agree that if implemented, the requested functions would impact you long before any of the rest of us. But that is your own fault. Despite your claims that the mods are biased against you, you make your own problems with them. If you leave them alone they will leave you alone. The rest of us have no fear of them at all, or any of the suggested changes I see in that post. It simply will not bother most of us.

I can't see what you are so worked up about anyway. Your profile says you are from the Pitcairn Islands. The last time I checked, there were about 50 people living there, it had almost no phone service, no air strip, was under British rule, and it was administered from New Zealand. So you have no constitutional right to free speech for project mods to trample anyway.

Now of course if you are not from Pitcairn Islands as indicated in your profile, then your credibility falls into serious question. Then I might wonder what you are concealing by hiding your systems from the larger user community. Under those terms you are hardly in a position to demand that anyone else either claim or disclaim anything, or accuse anyone of hiding their true identity. As a person who is concealing his actual location and the nature of his involvement in the project, you are hardly in a position to demand others be forth comming with you.

From my point of view mods don't have to answer to you, me, or anyone else, beyond the owner of the forums they serve, and they certainly don't owe you or anyone else an explanation for posting at another site under any identity they may choose. There is no evidence that any of the mods here are even aware of that posting, beyond your claims, which I can see from your message are based solely on your paranoid obsession with mod9. So where is the proof that any mod from this project posted that message? Where is your proof that mod9's secret identity is "Arnaud"? Did you even think to simply ask Arnaud who he is at the boinc dev site? Did you look for the ID "Arnaud" here or any where else?

By the way, I thought you said you were leaving rosy. Oh yea I forgot, you have a credibility problem, sorry.

EDIT:
What a surprise! It took less than 3 mins to find this profile for moderator "Arnaud" located in Paris France on the BBC CPDN web site. I think you owe every mod on this project an apology for your false accusations.


We Must look for intelligent life on other planets as,
it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Message 12319 - Posted: 20 Mar 2006, 8:03:13 UTC
Last modified: 20 Mar 2006, 8:35:56 UTC

Hi,
I'm the Arnaud who wrote this message.

I just wanted to say that this message on the dev list was written because of a problem with 2 BBC users (one user is particularly active) who are giving us a lot of moderation work.
And I'm not Moderator9: The people running CPDN models or being member of the L'Alliance Francophone team know who I am (I'm moderator on the l'AF team forum and translator in French of the BoincManager (with the help of other French users))

I want to be clear:
As a moderator (since several years on different forums) I've never censored anyone (I'm just moving or locking threads or deleting porn or commercial links)
and it is not my idea to censor people. (I'm someone rather open-minded and I'm rarely shocked by what I read)

The big number of participant on the BBC projets are showing the limits of the Boinc forums moderators options

My job on the BBC project is that children or families can read all the BBC messages without being shocked, as the BBC project is a project aimed at the general public.
More than that, my job is to give good advices to help people to fix their problem with Boinc and the climate models.
When a user is posting hundred of messages to give bad advices that are not helping people, what can we do ?

We have pragmatic problems with this user and are trying to find pragmatic solutions.
I hope your can understand that.

Regards,
Arnaud (sorry for my bad english)
Arnaud
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Message 12324 - Posted: 20 Mar 2006, 10:53:05 UTC

I should say at the outset that I am also known as moderator8 (thats an eight not a nine). I am posting as River as these comments are my own views.

It is clear to me that moderators do need more technical options to deal with exceptional cases.

It is equally clear to me that moderators also need to be guided by policies that are openly visible to the whole community they are moderating.

So for example, if email addresses are made available to moderators, before that happens there should be a guideline specifically saying what use a mod can and cannot make of that information. The project team already has access to the email you specify at sign-up, so I don't see a big problem if that becomes available to a few selected volunteer mods as well.

Equally however, the policy should set out exactly who gets access to that info: whereas at present it is not clear. There was a case on SETI where someone's ISP (not the complete email address) was publicly released by a well-meaning but (in my view) mistaken project person. There was a debate aftwerwards about whether the info should be expected to be kept confidential or not, but the real point is that whatever the policy is, it should be notified up front.

The policy also needs to spell out what use may be made of the info - for example in the case of an email address it might say that the mod may use the address to make a private contact with the person, but only in relation to a forum posting and not for any other reason. It should say whether or not (I think not) the mod can pass part of the address on to someone else or post any part of the address on a forum.

These things are not obvious - in part they reflect cultural differences: as a broad generalisation the NorthAmericans who posted to the debate on SETI thought it was bizarre that anyone should want this stuff kept secret, and the Europeans thought it was intrusive that anyone should publish it. The balance between freedom of speech and privacy is different in mainland Europe and in the US, with the UK falling somewhere in between. It is reasonable in an international project then to spell out where the website is going to set that balance.

Finally any such policy must include a way for individuals to appeal against moderator decisions.

The problem is not about giving mods power, it is (in my view) about leaving that power to be wielded withou accountability.

R~~



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Message 12328 - Posted: 20 Mar 2006, 11:22:51 UTC - in response to Message 12244.  
Last modified: 20 Mar 2006, 11:52:22 UTC

Your profile says you are from the Pitcairn Islands. The last time I checked, there were about 50 people living there, it had almost no phone service, no air strip, was under British rule, and it was administered from New Zealand. So you have no constitutional right to free speech for project mods to trample anyway.


This is the Guantanamo attitude: the US claims that nobody except US citizens have constitutional rights.

Firstly: on my reading of *your* constitution, foreigners (who you call aliens) are protected while in the US. This means that a Brit can sue a US company if that company acts within the US in a way that infringes my rights. Many such lawsuits have happened in the US courts, and the boundaries of what is and is not allowed are complex. None of those boundaries depend on what constitutional rights the "alien" has in his/her own country.

Secondly: the UK does have a constitution. Where our constitution differs from yours is that yours is written down in one document (plus amendments), whereas ours derives from a collection of documents (eg Magna Carta) and common law practices. Loosely speaking we can call yours a "written" and ours an "unwritten" constitution. New Zealand similarly has a constitution, which
consists of a series of legal documents, including certain acts of the UK and New Zealand Parliaments, as well as The Constitution Act 1986, which is the principal formal charter; adopted 1 January 1987, effective 1 January 1987

source: CIA website

All of which is utterly irrelevant as you were talking about the Pitcairn Islands which do have a written constitution,
adopted 30 November 1838; reformed 1904 with additional reforms in 1940; further refined by the Local Government Ordinance of 1964.

source: CIA website

NZ administers that constitution within the Pitcairn Islands, but that means it acts *only* within that constitution.

For your further information, the fundamental right allowed in any of the common law constitutions is that the individual may do anything not prohibited by law, whereas the state may only act in ways explicitly enabled by law.

That is why the British constitution would prevent Tony Blair from setting up a Guantanamo unless he got Parliament to agree. In contrast, George Bush claims to be allowed by your constitution to treat "aliens" anyhow he likes until/unless Senate and Congress stop him.

Personally I would prefer that my country followed your example and did adopt a written constitution, but I would want it to include some important checks and balances that our current unwritten constitution provides and that your written constituion leaves out. One of these would be the idea that the constitution only exists to protect its own nationals - an idea that does not actually appear in your constitution but which your courts have added. This shows that there is a degree of "common law" even in a written constitution like yours.

There are big advantages to many of the ways Americans do many things, us "aliens" have much to learn from you: but please don't assume that the American way is the only way and that no other way even exists. When you do assume that, us aliens will (no doubt unfairly) think you are being somewhat biased, especially when you ignore facts you can get from your own intelligence agency's website.

River~~

edits: added link to CIA website
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Message 12334 - Posted: 20 Mar 2006, 13:40:37 UTC - in response to Message 12328.  

Your profile says you are from the Pitcairn Islands. The last time I checked, there were about 50 people living there, it had almost no phone service, no air strip, was under British rule, and it was administered from New Zealand. So you have no constitutional right to free speech for project mods to trample anyway.


This is the Guantanamo attitude: the US claims that nobody except US citizens have constitutional rights.

... but please don't assume that the American way is the only way and that no other way even exists. When you do assume that, us aliens will (no doubt unfairly) think you are being somewhat biased, especially when you ignore facts you can get from your own intelligence agency's website.

River~~

edits: added link to CIA website


You missed the point entirely.

And while completely irrelevant to this conversation, civilian combatants who are not part of an organized army, captured waging war in a foreign country, and never brought to American soil, may have rights under the Geneva convention (even that is not clear), but they are not mentioned in the US constitution, any more than a Canadian in Canada, or a citizen in Pitcarin Islands. who never seta foot in American soil. We extent some protections to citizens of other countries in their dealing with the US, but not all of those guaranteed to persons or citizens on American soil.

We Must look for intelligent life on other planets as,
it is becoming increasingly apparent we will not find any on our own.
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Message 12337 - Posted: 20 Mar 2006, 16:52:49 UTC



There is without doubt a need for a function allowing a Moderator to move an entire thread. I have had this problem myself. There is also a need to have more reasons available in the forms provided for various moderator actions. Perhaps even a blank field where the Moderator can enter a reason.

As for shutting down and locking a thread, if the problem gets to that point, the thread is probably not worth preserving in the first place. But I can think of ways to use such a feature for informational threads where you might not want users to post. So I would support the ability to have threads where only specific classes of users are allowed to post.

I think shutting off a user would be very difficult. They could always create a new ID for continued posting so it simply will not work the way you would want. The same applies to disabling a users posting privileges for a short time. In concept it looks interesting but it is impossible to put into practice. The filtering idea has some merit. But I think it should be a system administrator function not a Moderator function.

In that regard, most of the problem users I have seen are very sensitive about credits. I would support a System where a Moderator could set a flag on a problem user ID, that would notify the Project administrators. If the Administrator agrees that the user is a chronic problem, a certain amount of credit would be deducted from the users stats. Kind of like a fine. But it is important that there be some kind of group that makes the determination, it should not be based on the decision of a single Moderator acting alone. Perhaps two or three in concert with a Project Administrator. If that happened often enough, the user would probably leave the project, but if the behavior is truly egregious that would not necessarily be a bad thing.

I have serious concerns about providing volunteer moderators access to e-mail addresses and other unique user identification data. If a problem is so serious that type of contact is required then it is serious enough to bring it to the attention of a System Administrator for any action to be taken. The project has almost no regulatory control over Volunteer moderators except termination of their moderator status. While this protects the project, it is hardly a protection for the user who may have contact information released.

Here at Rosetta, this issue was discussed on the forum with a number of users, and I took the issue to the Project Team for a decision. The consensus amoung the users was that if contact beyond the forum was to be established with a user by a volunteer Moderator, the user should initiate that contact and provide the return contact information. The Project left it to each Moderator as to whether or not they wished to have that kind of contact with the users, and if so, they could set up what ever they were comfortable with. To that end I established an e-mail account for this purpose and have listed the information in the FAQs. As far as I am aware none of the other Moderators here have done that, but if/when they do, I would include their contact information in the FAQs as well.

So far this contact method has been used a number of times, and it has worked well. However, I do not keep the users contact information any longer than is necessary to address their issue.

Censorship is a completely separate issue. I think we all agree that it is the job of forum Moderators to maintain certain standards of conduct on the forums. Without opening this up to a discussion of that issue in particular, Moderators are not censoring users ideas when they apply a standard of conduct. The users can and should choose language that conveys their ideas without use of profanity, threats, or denigration, and they should avoid language crafted to incite such reactions from other users. When a moderator takes action against posts of this nature, the user is free to repost with the same idea (assuming there is one) but with a more reasonable choice of words. But Moderators should be very careful not to react to the idea itself, unless it is outright offensive or profane, only to the way in which it is expressed. The international nature of these kinds of forums makes this very complicated, and so Moderators are provided great latitude by the projects to act in such matters.

One thing I have noticed about the CPDN project is that they have a user agreement that is a condition of participation on their forums. Either the user agrees or they may not post. This makes the Moderation function much easier, as all registered users have been provided a clear statement of the rules. I would very much support this for Rosetta.

In any case I wish to thank "[AF>Est>Linux]Arna" (Arnaud) for taking the time to post here on this issue and for the explanation provided. You were certainly under no obligation to explain your actions here and it was quite thoughtful of you to do so. I wish you well over there at CPDN, I would guess you have your work cut out for you.



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Message 12367 - Posted: 21 Mar 2006, 1:14:57 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2006, 1:16:41 UTC

@Moderator9:

Yes, we discussed the privacy issue here some time ago, and I agree totally with you that private information, such as e-mail addresses and other unique user identification data linked to an account, should not be given to any volunteer moderator. If a post is so offensive, that a personal contact beyond the "usual" mail telling "I've moved your post" and such is necessary, the red button is there for this, so the project staff can take care of it.

You say:
"One thing I have noticed about the CPDN project is that they have a user agreement that is a condition of participation on their forums. Either the user agrees or they may not post. This makes the Moderation function much easier, as all registered users have been provided a clear statement of the rules. I would very much support this for Rosetta."

I haven't been much around for the past couple of months, as my mother died two months ago, so I have been very busy clearing her stuff and followed that up being ill with a serious bronchitis, so I haven't been a regular here in that time. But has there been any "incidents" lately to justify this step? Besides the rules, that's stated up at the left of the edit window "Don't use obscene language or images, and don't threaten other participants; otherwise we may delete your messages.", is there any need for further rules?


[b]"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me[/b]

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Message 12376 - Posted: 21 Mar 2006, 4:47:07 UTC - in response to Message 12367.  
Last modified: 21 Mar 2006, 4:50:20 UTC

@Moderator9:

Yes, we discussed the privacy issue here some time ago, and I agree totally with you that private information, such as e-mail addresses and other unique user identification data linked to an account, should not be given to any volunteer moderator. If a post is so offensive, that a personal contact beyond the "usual" mail telling "I've moved your post" and such is necessary, the red button is there for this, so the project staff can take care of it.

You say:
"One thing I have noticed about the CPDN project is that they have a user agreement that is a condition of participation on their forums. Either the user agrees or they may not post. This makes the Moderation function much easier, as all registered users have been provided a clear statement of the rules. I would very much support this for Rosetta."

I haven't been much around for the past couple of months, as my mother died two months ago, so I have been very busy clearing her stuff and followed that up being ill with a serious bronchitis, so I haven't been a regular here in that time. But has there been any "incidents" lately to justify this step? Besides the rules, that's stated up at the left of the edit window "Don't use obscene language or images, and don't threaten other participants; otherwise we may delete your messages.", is there any need for further rules?




Fuzzy,

I remember well the discussion and thank you again for your participation. No there have been no issues. But as you know there was some discussion about how Moderation is done and what type of things might prompt moderator actions. I think a statement as stiff as the one at CPDN would not be necessary, but some kind of statement, perhaps telling people how to contact the Project and something about posting formalities (where to put things to get the best response and so on), might help people. This could also be used to let people know what their rights are as users and where to report abuses by moderators and other users.


As a personal aside please accept my condolences on the loss of your mother. I have been through that myself and I know it is difficult. While the loss never leaves, time will bring back the memories of better times. Kitty will help get you there.
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Message 12421 - Posted: 21 Mar 2006, 14:04:47 UTC - in response to Message 12376.  
Last modified: 21 Mar 2006, 14:10:11 UTC


Fuzzy,

I remember well the discussion and thank you again for your participation. No there have been no issues. But as you know there was some discussion about how Moderation is done and what type of things might prompt moderator actions. I think a statement as stiff as the one at CPDN would not be necessary, but some kind of statement, perhaps telling people how to contact the Project and something about posting formalities (where to put things to get the best response and so on), might help people. This could also be used to let people know what their rights are as users and where to report abuses by moderators and other users.[/color][/b]

As a personal aside please accept my condolences on the loss of your mother. I have been through that myself and I know it is difficult. While the loss never leaves, time will bring back the memories of better times. Kitty will help get you there.


Thank you. :-)

Yes, with this argument, you use, I'll say it's a good idea, because a lot of people don't really know what to do in case of abuses and unpleasant coposters. I think many flamewars could be avoided, if people react prompt on abusive posts and report them imidiately to the mods. Of course there should be a certain scope as people's sense of humour are different.

What I'm wary of is the "just in case" attitude, where rules are implemented just for doing it, on a board where people tend to behave relatively civilized towards each other. This can make a board very rigid and not very fun to participate on. Over at Seti, they have dealt with the problems, when they rose, and boy, have we seen a lot over there, but I think the mods over there have dealt with things very well without making it a very regulated board. Yes, we have seen some very extreme cases over there (Seti seem to attract extreme persons!), and the mods/devs/staff have also used extreme methods to deal with them. But as I've seen it, they have been case to case solutions. Yes, this had been very time-consuming for them; time they could and would have prefered to spend on other more important things, but there haven't been that many cases. The case I personally was involved in, the devs blocked the person's IP in Seti's firewall!

Yes, losing your last parent is hard, and having to clear my mother's home and deal with her things were a rough experience. But on the positive side, my brother and I found each other again as big brother and little sister, and we had many laughs of "do you remember this", while we were going through every piece of my mother's (my parents) belongings and deciding who should have it. We have shared with each other, what we wanted, gave some things to other familymembers and her friends, and gave the rest to charity. But of course, there were some things I have memories about from my childhood, I couldn't have, as I have my own home and household, we had to get rid of, and that was hard! But luckily we gave it to people, who really wanted it, and this feels good. But to realize that some things from your life now has gone forever, is a hard process to go through. And I'm sure my bronchitis is a reaction to this, as it started the day after, we handed over the appartment. And the full emotional reaction will hit me later, I know that. Thanks for your kind words. :-)


[b]"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me[/b]

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Message 13058 - Posted: 4 Apr 2006, 20:28:43 UTC

The Boinc forums should have used a better design template from the beginning, for an example used the free Snitz forum.
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Message 13408 - Posted: 10 Apr 2006, 18:50:51 UTC
Last modified: 10 Apr 2006, 19:05:09 UTC

Official board for BBC CCE (for people that don't know and are readind this)

http://bbc.cpdn.org/forum_help_desk.php


shows that there are also the phpbb
http://www.climateprediction.net/board/index.php?c=7 used as the intro board mainly and hence the first most might use anyway
and
Open Uni's board that can be used.

Anyways
The BBC has to conform to a code of conduct set out by a charter (which what I don't care) but their forum will also have to abide by it. So even if BOINC or BOINC die hards do not like it some board do need it.

Americans or none british citizens really have no say :-p other than not participate.


Team mauisun.org
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