On Jan 27, 2006, at 6:24 AM, Carl wrote:

Hi Paul, whilst you and I may have disagreed on the Rosetta forum I see no reason why my attendance there should scare you off. Things have now quietened down , though I suspect you have looked, and the mods are changing things within the BOINC package to something which I feel is workable.

Your personal presence or absence on the forums has nothing to do with my leaving. My being suicidal again does. Since this "altercation" seems to be the most exciting part of my life at the moment, I can only think that this might be the cause.

And the conclusion to be drawn is that the quiet is for the plain and simple fact that I left and no longer try to explain BOINC to those that would rather remain in ignorance than to take the time to learn.

The moderator is moving things around, and as of the last time I looked doing it entirely within the existing BOINC package. Something that I rather unpopularity pointed out was within the realm of possibilities with no changes required to the basic forum architecture.

I have personally been blamed on a few forum for your departure, if this is true I apologize, it was not my intention.

It was not one individual, but, the collection of us all, myself included, and the seeming desire of people to band into defensive packs and attack anyone they happen to disagree with. Not the idea, but the person. Not to answer objections, but to accuse the questioner of heresy, hatred, bias, etc.

There are people there that miss your posts and I ask you return for them, not me.
There you see. If the original reason had been because of you we have an immediate conflict. :)

Again I apologize for any offense you may have mistakenly taken.

No offense. But,

"If you are truly concerned about the project, you all would have welcomed the FAD contingent and asked US, how are you finding it? Was it easy ? What can we do to make it easier / better ?"

Where do you see in any of my posts where I asked any of the FAD people to leave?
I have asked people how things can be made better. It is one of my constants. I have gone so far as to beg people to read the Wiki and to make suggestions. Virtually all of which are incorporated.

I did ask how were any of the proposed changes going to make things better. Not just different, but better.

The collective of the suggestions for the web site change is to significantly increase the number of forums. As people have trouble finding the "right" place to post NOW. So, I asked, reasonably enough I thought, how making 3-8 forums into 10-20 forums was going to make things "better". To that question, and others, no answer. However I did get accusations of various things ...

Other than changing BOINC to be like FaD, how would the changes make BOINC better? That question remains unanswered.

I have been doing BOINC for 2.5 years. As new "waves" of people join I see a rather common pattern of "BOINC Stinks because ..." followed by me asking how would the suggest complaint best be corrected within the design goals of BOINC. For which, as in this case I get no answer, but, declarations that I hate progress, am resistant to change, etc.

Oh, and my suggestion that the individuals get involved with the correction process usually gets answers like:
"I am a 'vision' person." "I don't do code.", "I don't have time." ... add your own favorite excuses here.

Lots of time to complain, no time to be part of the solution. And the solution better suit the needs of the complainer or they are leaving ...

The 1% problem causes 'x', fix it now or I am leaving ...
The "stuck" work unit problems are 'x', fix it now or I am leaving ...
The large downloads are a problem, fix it now or I am leaving ...
The forums don't look the way I like them, fix it now or I am leaving ...

Lest you get the idea I have a poor opinion ONLY of those at Rosetta@Home that are likely new from FaD:

SETI@Home Classic worked perfectly, BOINC doesn't so it is a step backwards, fix it now or I am leaving ...
SETI@Home Classic's servers never went off-line so I always had work, BOINC doesn't, fix it now or I am leaving ...

Perhaps you can see the drift here ...

I *AM* pro-BOINC, so much so that I have never tried to make BOINC look like, act like, taste like, SETI@Home Classic, FaD, or any other system for that matter. I have tried to make it like BOINC ... and to live within its design intent. The only reason I can have the conceit that I *MIGHT* have a clue that I have an understanding of the design intent is that I have done literally nothing else in my "working day" for a long time. Being pro-BOINC means that I don't try to put lipstick on a pig, make changes for the sake of change, or subvert the point of BOINC. On the SETI@Home boards the same type of rhetoric occurred where the "Classic" people were declaring that us "BOINC" people were against them. How they could miss the fact that I too did SETI@Home Classic is beyond me ... So, I too was a "Classic" person. But, I did not cling to the past when I started using BOINC.

I am NOT blind to the faults of BOINC. Nor to the need for changes. However, I am much more aware than most about how difficult it is to make "minor" changes that do not "break" other things.

So, once again, the proposal to change the forums is the least needed, least useful, and probably the worst change that could be considered by the Rosetta@Home team. Of course they have to ask what you would like, and say they will look into it. But, is this REALLY what we want them to be working on? Thinking about? Attempting?

I did suggest that the most PRACTICAL way to achieve the goal expressed was to find Janus and see if in the next set of changes that the ability to have a more flexible forum architecture would be possible. THAT is the BOINC way... change the baseline so that the capability exists for ALL projects. Don't change Rosetta@Home ... change BOINC. And yet I still come back to the question of "how will the proposed change make things better?" Adding an announcements forum, why is that better than the news banner. Because someone only links to the forums we should change the mechanism or announcing changes? Especially when he can get an RSS feed if he/she likes, or, use a statistics site that summarize the news off all projects, or just look at the front page for heavens sake ... even more silly is the belief that if there is an "announcements" forum that there will be more announcements. If the project makes a change and does not add it to the news what makes anyone think that the presence of an announcements forum is going to make that announcement happen?

Click on the link under my name, click on the "Posts" link, re-read the posts I made and see if I have misrepresented anything in this reply. I tried to make the point that the level of discourse has declined. Since the major change that brought this about is the influx of people from FaD, I can draw the conclusion that perhaps this is not my neighborhood any longer. And my not liking the change means that it is time for me to go elsewhere. And, so I have moved. I liked Rosetta@Home for the atmosphere it used to have. I liked it because people were not trying to make Rosetta@Home into some nostalgic project of the imagined past. If that makes me against the FaD people, well, I guess so ...

My sense of the "mood" is that the overwhelming preference is that Rosetta@Home should change from what it is, and it should change into FaD II. Since I like it the way Rosetta@Home is, and the way the discussions used to be ... and I seem to be the "odd man out", well, logic says I should be the one to leave. And, so ...

Feel free to post this reply in its entirety in the forums if you wish so the unjust accusation can be laid to rest. But, I have little intention to return, just as I post little at SETI@Home, and for the same reasons ... I doubt that I will be posting much ... the only sad thing for me is that Rosetta@Home was the first project where I looked at all the non-Q&P forums (like many, I cannot stand the format of the Q&P forums and was one of those that argued for the elimination of that format - but I digress) each and every day. But, life moves on, and so will I ...

Sorry that you are getting the blame for a situation where none of us are blameless, least of all me ...

Paul

p.s. If you do not wish to post this, but will give me permission to reveal the content of your private e-Mail to me I shall do so ... The only additional change I would make is to add BB style quoting of your text and my reply, spelling errors in the original also have already been corrected.

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On Jan 27, 2006, at 12:03 PM, Carl wrote:

Paul of course you may post as you wish, my full permission to use my post is yours.

Thank you.

Please, please be aware that your post does seem very dire, in that you sound very disheartened and depressed. Think on this before you post.

Why should that be surprising? I have made no secret of the fact that I am a long time sufferer from major depression. Depression and some other "goodies" (though a neurologist seems to feel that staggering and falling down are not indications of neurological problems) are the very reason why I am considered fully disabled and have all this spare time on my hands.

Being both highly intelligent and autistic is an interesting combination (Asperger's Syndrome) which usually means that I am more than doubly annoying to people. But, it also means that like "Mr. Spock" I don't have an agenda, logic is my guide, and facts are paramount. I explained why things were a bad idea from my perspective, how they COULD be done in a non-disruptive way, pointed out that the clamor for change was bad because there were too many "immediate" problems, which the forum changes were being proposed as one, and received in return:

1) no answers to my questions
2) no concrete evidence or proof that the changes would make anything better
3) what seemed to me to be attacks on my motives
4) well, enough is enough, I don't think I will or need to continue ...

And disheartened? Sure, for me Rosetta@Home used to be my favorite place of all the BOINC projects ... now, I don't recognize it anymore.

So, I will post these two. At least so people will no longer unfairly blame you. As I said, if anything it was all of us, myself included, and that too is a depressing indictment of us all ...

Paul

================
Some additional notes,

1) I don't see what Moderator9 is doing as censorship. Including those posts of mine moved or deleted. I have long felt that the general "tone" of many of the posts are too, um, "adult" in content. My rule is mostly along the lines of "If you don't want your 6-year old to say it to your mother, spiritual guide, wife, friend, boss, etc."; then it does not belong in a public forum.

2) I have little time, patience or understanding of, and for, those that are unwilling to "volunteer" and "donate" unless everything is on their terms. We should be contributing with an open heart and without conditions.

3) I left Rosetta@Home because I don't feel like I belong here. The joy of BOINC is that I can still contribute, just elsewhere. The person that sulks and says they will do nothing if they cannot have SETI@Home, or Rosetta@Home, or whatever, is, to me, incomprehensible and spiritually bankrupt. If RAH cannot be done right now because of bandwidth, work failures, memory constraints, by all means go to Predictor@Home, SIMAP@Home, WCG, Einstein@Home, go someplace ... don't sulk ...

And for those that justify and defend this behavior ... well, I don't find much there to commend either. A bully is a bully. A grudging volunteer is not a volunteer. A donation does not imply a commitment from the recipient.

4) Stating that you cannot support research for a potentially fatal illness that could be contracted because of "life-style" choices is not only making moral judgments on the sufferer, but is likewise reprehensible because if only one person of a million gets it for any other reason, that illness is just as deserving as any other fatal illness. A point that was driven home to me by one of *MY* therapists maintaining that all of my current difficulties are because I have "chosen" to be mentally ill. And that if I decide tomorrow to not be, well, we have a happy ending. And, if we are talking about "favorite" fatal illnesses that do not receive their fair share I can also point to depression, with its 10-30% fatality rate (depending on the study and if you include things like "suicide by cop" and "going postal"), is not even on ANYONE's list of important illnesses for research ...

5) The sum of all of this is the reason I left. I look at our conduct, not excepting my own and I am ashamed and depressed. I suggest that if you are not also, then, well, I am completely out of step and that the problem was Paul after all and that my leaving was/is best for all.

6) Please do not go on witch hunts on my behalf.

7) I may come back, I don't think so, but it could happen. But, the last thing in the world I need now is to find proof positive that it really was me that was the divisive factor. The current state of quiet does lead one to think that this is the case; but proving the negative case is impossible; and I cannot take the risk of the attempt in the other direction. I still donate computer time, very little to RAH now though as I don't like the company here; but that is the nice thing about BOINC. I can leave. I left Predictor@Home when the refused to acknowldge the problems with their application, I can leave here because of the people.

For the most part I am giving up on contributing to the forums as the trend I see is that no one wants to learn, and for a person that loves to teach that is truly sad. But, the trend now seems to be that anyone that attempts to explain why BOINC is the way it is, and the best ways to make changes; well, what is the point of trying to talk about it when all it does is elicit an attack?

To recap the argument ONE LAST TIME, the evidence supporting a forum change is based solely on opinion, zero research, zero proof, and no study. A poll of less than 20 individuals out of tens of thousands is not convincing proof of anything. You want an idea of how to do something like that, try a study like this or this, or this.

8) Asperger's gives me some protection from being suicidal, so you do not have to have significant fear for my life. Mostly what it does is make the days tedious and bleak, with the constant thoughts of death being mainly an annoying distraction that interferes with anything resembling productivity. Intellect and logic are firmly in control and though death holds no fears, it also has no specific attraction nor is it a viable solution in that it solves nothing and merely exchanges one set of problems and unknowns to a new set of problems and unknowns ...

9) Sending e-mails with pleas for this or that do nothing to help and only compounds my troubles. If you have a specific question, or a suggestion for the Wiki, by all means, send me a note. Otherwise ... let me suffer and try to recover lost ground in peace ... of course, if you are really that angry with me, now you know the best way to seek revenge ...

---

Take Care Paul & I'll see you down the road, take the time also to recuperate from whatever is bothering you before making any final decisions ...

Paul,

i don't want you to leave. you haven't finished the wiki yet.

i think in some respects this last week or so has been a great invigorating learning experience for all of us. it shows how different we all are, with different priorities and wants. the thing that holds us together is our deep interest in rosetta.

as for the forum changes, haven't you ever heard of "ask for twice what you want and settle for half"?? never in a million years did i think that this board would be made over into a Fadwannabe. but at the same time some changes have to be put into effect for it to be more efficient and user friendly. thank god it's not us making those decisions, they're tough ones to be sure. i'm not leaving if these changes aren't made, i like how the program runs, and the fact that the scientists are willing to communicate with us about it. but i would like to be able to find answers to common problems and especially more information on the setup of preferences and their meaning. maybe further down the road when you feel up to it.

i hope you enjoy your time off however long it is, and then come back with a renewed spirit for this place, i for one will miss you and your contributions.

---

Paul wrote

Oh, and my suggestion that the individuals get involved with the correction process usually gets answers like:
"I am a 'vision' person." "I don't do code.", "I don't have time." ... add your own favorite excuses here.

Paul, "I dont have time" for a very good reason and it is not an "excuse". My time is taken up 24/7/365 caring for a family member who has cancer, is blind, has had kidney and heart failure, a stroke, has arthritis, a form of dementia, has almost no mobility and other problems. In between all this, I have to try to earn a pound/buck or two any way I can. I consider myself lucky if I can find half an hour to myself some days ! I am not looking for sympathy by posting this, as I chose to do it myself. Just be aware that not all are excuses. I would do more if I had time.

From Doctor Bakers profile

The future of structural biology will involve computing at a level not yet available, according to Baker. "With more computing power we could solve these problems," Baker said. "I lie awake at night thinking about how to get more computers."

Paul, have a rest and reconsider please.

Take care.

Paul,

you are appreciated here. come back when & whenever you are ready.

come back for a while or for longer - the door is open to return and open to leave again

what you have given is still here, and still valued.

I think you are wise to drop out while you feel as you do, but I hope you don't do so for ever.

You say it is everyone's fault, including your own - I say it is nobody's fault. Humans find it hard to communicate well, and we end up at cross purposes and then simply cross.

Different people have different expectations about the level of emotion and logic behind any dialogue - and that difference will always be there because humans will always be the same mix of multiple levels.

We need your logical focus - and it is especially valuable to have it in a document keeper.

People with a less logical focus will continue sometimes to blame the messenger for the message - to use words in reply that seem like an attack when actually what they *really* mean is to convey their deep disappointment or their bereavement from FAD, classic SETI, or whatever. These things will continue to happen on forums for as long as the contributors include a wide range of human beings. We need those people too.

And collectively, that means we all need to be open to learning more about how to communicate with each other, about how to show respect for people whose logic/emotion thermostat is fixed in a very different place to our own.

We find it a challenge. It is nobody's *fault*, it is everybody's *challenge*.

You will be welcome back to the challenge just as soon as you feel up to it again - and will be wise not to come back a moment earlier than you are ready.

I'll be thinking of you
River~~

Paul,

I have no idea if you even think of me as a familiar face, but We've been around BOINC since the beginning you and I. You have ALWAYS been an asset to any project or forum you participate in. I know it can be disheartening to deal with the myriad complaints and seemingly pointless and AGONIZINGLY ENDLESS "boinc sucks" discussions. I myself don't have the patience or the energy for it and I know it can be SO F'N emotionally and spiritually draining!

Countless times, I've wanted to reach through the monitor and smack people or strangle them.. or worse. In general, you have always been one to contribute with one common goal in mind and that was "How can this work better for BOINC?". Your selfless concern with the project has been a boon to all those involved and I don't know if my opinion even means much to you, but I commend you.

Rosetta is one of those projects, where there has been ALOT of new people added QUICK; However, it is also a project that I hold dear to me due to it's scientific value. The project managers, and staff for this project have been absolutely astounding in their efforts to keep it's users happy. It REALLY IS a shame that you choose to leave here simply because of the n00b's on the forum, but I can understand your need to have a slight departure from the people who before they even join a project or BOINC itself they've decided they hate everything about it. I don't blame you at all. I too have left Predictor for teething problems with it and those who operate it. No doubt about it, I've got a large choice finger for the people at scripps.

About the issue at hand? - NO this should not be and never will be FADII. Yes, there will always be those who say "FAD was better", and for their purposes - maybe it was? However, this is Rosetta. FAD is GONE, and those people who think they can ressurrect whatever dead project they came from (seti classic, FAD, FAAH, etc..) need to move the f&*^ on. I also agree with you wholeheartedly that there doesn't need to be an "announcements" forum. I think it's stupid (forgive me whoever's brainchild this was) to make an announcement forum when there is a news feed on the home page. Simply having a forum won't make more announcements. Although I guess it's a place where you could go to discuss the news? *shrugs*

Do know, that I am not the only one with this opinion. Alot of times, if I see that you're holding an argument well, I stay out of the discussion! Not because I don't agree with you - but because I know you can argue it much better than I. I'm sure that anyone who has been around values your input, and participation. Especially peeps like us that've been around since "prehistoric beta". Remember the days when all BOINC did was the UPPERCASE application? hahahaha.. How far we've come!

Who the hell am I to ask, but please promise me that a couple weeks, or months from now, you'll take a moment to at least reevaluate your departure?

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Well paul;

i definatly loved reading all your posts and comments.

Yes, I am one of the people from the most recent of wavs (coming from FaD).

it would take along time to go through all the posts and figure if i said something wrong or to offend people.. i hope i did not.

as for adding new message boards.. yes i would like a few more catagories cause alot of time i sit here and think what dose this post go to

our curent options are

Rosetta@home Science - dont normaly post here im not a scientist if its a science question maybe

Number crunching - alot of posts end up here by default since they are of what the poster thinks (or is) more important and about the project

Cafe Rosetta - this is the final catch all and if they dont seem to go in the other 2 they must go here...


personaly in my own opinion i would love some more sections for instance
- a team section (yea it fits in cafe rosetta but sometimes hard to see non team posts

there are other sections that im sure would be nice... as i said would like and would be nice... im not leaving unless i determin im waisting my time here and as far as i can tell this is curently what i feel is the most worthwile cause for me (in my opinion)

@ Paul D. Buck- I am glad to see that while you are restricting or limiting your posting that you are still crunching (as seen on boincstats)

@the fix it or im leaving people : im sure alot of you arnt saying it as a threat just trying to find a way to express why you arnt going to be crunchin here.

yes there are multiple bugs... and EVERY project goes down.

I think the moderaters are doing a great job. earlier this mornign i posted about a error on eithor a user or the program about the 100,000,000,000+ user and the problem was fixed.. i cant find the message anymore.. if it was deleted its fine with me if it was moved. Shrug i cant find it

@ paul again - as for people puting excuses on why they dont fix things. alot of people arnt puting up excuses some people just dont have the ability, skill or knoledge. your Wiki gives alot of knoledge and im glad for it. personaly i dont have the time (yep listed as one of the excuses) right now for instance i am maning a compartment as we are prepairing to go underway. im on a ship i dont reliably get internet connection sometimes so i really dont have time sometimes. (sorry about the soapboxing)

well got to get back to work..

P.S. had to copy and paste this message 2x just to get it posted do to the ship droping internet connection.

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Nasher commented;

...I think the moderaters are doing a great job. earlier this mornign i posted about a error on eithor a user or the program about the 100,000,000,000+ user and the problem was fixed.. i cant find the message anymore.. if it was deleted its fine with me if it was moved. Shrug i cant find it...

Nasher,

I think the post you are looking for is here. The thread is not visible on the forum. Hiding threads is not one of the things a moderator like myself can do. So I can only presume the project administrators took that action. David Kim did respond to your message. As to the message itself, I have not touched it in any way (moved, deleted) It does not appear to have been moderated in any way by the other mods either.

If you ever have a problem finding one of your messages, simply click on your user ID (to the left of any of your posts) and it will take you to a link where you can view every post you have ever sent. That is how I found the one you were looking for.

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Moderator9
ROSETTA@home FAQ
Moderator Contact

@mod 9- when a message is hidden you get

Unable to handle request
This thread has been hidden for administrative purposes

so i can not see the response nore can anyone else. and yes even clickin on my user ID i can not get to see the responses

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Nasher wrote:

@mod 9- when a message is hidden you get

Unable to handle request
This thread has been hidden for administrative purposes

so i can not see the response nore can anyone else. and yes even clickin on my user ID i can not get to see the responses

Sorry about that I did not know you would not be able to see the message with a direct link.

In response to your question on that thread Dr. Kim Wrote -
"I fixed the extremely large credit value and am working on a fix so that it doesn't happen again. I don't think it was the user's fault, but more likely a bug in the system."

Since I do not have the ability to hide a thread myself, I was unaware of the effect that might have in viewing it by a direct link. But our conversation is really getting a little off topic for this thread so if you wish to continue, please post here

---

Moderator9
ROSETTA@home FAQ
Moderator Contact

Nasher wrote:

@mod 9- when a message is hidden you get

Unable to handle request
This thread has been hidden for administrative purposes

so i can not see the response nore can anyone else. and yes even clickin on my user ID i can not get to see the responses

Sorry about that I did not know you would not be able to see the message with a direct link.

In response to your question on that thread Dr. Kim Wrote -
"I fixed the extremely large credit value and am working on a fix so that it doesn't happen again. I don't think it was the user's fault, but more likely a bug in the system."

Since I do not have the ability to hide a thread myself, I was unaware of the effect that might have in viewing it by a direct link. But our conversation is really getting a little off topic for this thread so if you wish to continue, please post here

all this hoopla and i wasnt here to start it??!


im slipping!

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Secret team meetings and the sharing of 3.2Terabytes of free software -->HERE!... Don't spy, we don't like spies!